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Exclusive: Interview with Prof Seth Kalichman, author of “Denying Aids”

with 11 comments

Professor Seth Kalichman’s excellent new book, Denying AIDS, is the most comprehensive account yet of the origins and development of a toxic ideology – AIDS denialism. In this e-interview, Seth discusses the book, and the urgent issues that it seeks to address.

RW: Why does AIDS denialism matter?

AIDS denialism matters because it kills people. I know this sounds like drama and hyperbole, but it is true. AIDS denialism creates confusion about the cause of AIDS. when people who need accurate information about HIV/AIDS are exposed to AIDS denialism they might actually believe that there is a debate among doctors and scientists about the cause of HIV when there is no such debate. AIDS denialists tell people that they should avoid HIV tests because they are invalid. In fact, HIV tests are extremely accurate and only rarely misdiagnose people with HIV. Being HIV infected and not knowing your HIV status means that you may not take measures to keep from spreading the virus. In many countries the majority of HIV infected people do not know they are infected. Huge resources are dedicated to getting people at risk for HIV tested. AIDS denialists undermine these efforts. Finally, AIDS denialism matters because it persuades people who have tested HIV positive to refuse HIV treatments. Denialists say that HIV treatments are toxic poison. In fact, HIV treatments are responsible for extending the lives and improving the health of people living with HIV/AIDS. In the US and UK, entire hospital wards that were once for AIDS patients are no longer needed. People with HIV are returning to work and living healthier lives because of treatments. AIDS deniers are trying to reverse this trend and return to days when there were no treatments.

RW: What was the inspiration for “Denying AIDS”?

I have been conducting HIV/AIDS prevention and treatment research in the US since 1989 and in South Africa since 2001. I have known for years that AIDS denialists exist, but like most people I thought that ignoring them would make them just go away. I also thought that very few people were AIDS denialists and that no one would listen to them. I suppose you could say I was denial about AIDS denialism. Like many others, I was very wrong about AIDS denialism. While working in South Africa I became aware of the devastating effects that AIDS denial was having in that country. The former President Thabo Mbeki had enlisted AIDS denialists among his advisors and bought into the idea that scientists are debating the cause of AIDS. Mbeki’s misguided AIDS policies resulted in over 330,000 senseless deaths and 35,000 babies who were needlessly infected with HIV. I was aware of the failure to offer treatment for South Africans living with HIV/AIDS and I knew that AIDS denial was to blame. In 2006 I also became aware of AIDS denialists in the US and UK. I received an email correspondence from someone I knew to be a well trained social psychologist in a teaching position at a respected university. She had written a very positive review of an old AIDS denialist book by Professor Peter Duesberg in California, the most notorious AIDS denialist. This psychologist had posted the book review at the RethinkingAIDS.com website. I was absolutely dumbfounded to learn that someone who I knew to be educated and who I believed to be intelligent had not only bought into AIDS denial but was actively propagating the myths. I started to look at the AIDS denialist literature and found it disturbing and also fascinating. I wanted to learn more about how seemingly intelligent people would come to believe absolute rubbish. So I decided to write Denying AIDS.

RW: What kinds of people become AIDS denialists, and what motivates them?

All kinds of people become AIDS denialists. Most visible are the fringe scientists because they write books and have websites. They are following in the footsteps of Peter Duesberg. Still, AIDS denialists who have academic positions do considerable harm because they create an impression of credibility. There are also rogue journalists who write about conspiracy theories and other sensational pseudo-news. AIDS denialist journalists do considerable harm because they bring AIDS denialism into the public eye. AIDS denialism also has its activists, typically people who have tested HIV positive and buy into denialism as a maladaptive coping strategy. These denialists also have credibility because they appear to be living healthy with HIV and not taking medications. There are even celebrities who support AIDS denialist activism, including the popular rock band the Foo Fighters and comedian Bill Maher. Tragically, AIDS denialist activists have infected their children and others and they themselves die of AIDS earlier than they may have if they accepted treatment. Then there is a large group of people who are prone to conspiracy theorizing, anti-government sentiments, and simply wanting to make mischief. These people are typically Internet bloggers with way too much time on their hands. Many seem not to realize the harm they are causing and most others just do not seem to care.

RW: Who are the key figures in the AIDS denial movement, and what are their ideas?

In my opinion, the key figures include the following people:

Peter Duesberg is the single most important figure in HIV/AIDS denialism because he is the only credentialed scientist who has worked with retroviruses, although not having worked with HIV, to propose that HIV does not cause AIDS. The rock star of AIDS denialism, he holds fast to his flawed ideas. What makes him unique is that he was once a respected scientist and now shows utter disrespect for science by refuting facts in the service of self-promotion.

David Rasnick is Peter Duesberg’s right hand man. Quite literally, in public Rasnick appears to be Duesberg’s personal assistant. At one time, he had a visiting scholar appointment with the Department of Molecular and Cell Biology at UC Berkeley (1996-2005), where he worked with Duesberg, although the university retracted his appointment. Rasnick is a conspiracy theorist, claiming that the US government propagates the ‘myth’ that HIV causes AIDS to allow the pharmaceutical industry. Rasnick served with Duesberg on the now infamous panel of AIDS experts and denialists convened by South African President Thabo Mbeki in 2000. In fact, Rasnick is credited, or blamed, with convincing Mbeki that there is a need for a scientific debate on the cause of AIDS. He also worked with Matthias Rath in conducting what are now ruled unlawful vitamin studies in South Africa.

Kary B. Mullis was a Nobel Laureate and is now among the who’s who of AIDS pseudoscientists. In 1994, Mullis co-authored the essay “What causes AIDS? It’s an open question” and he has appeared in several interviews in which he clearly questions whether HIV causes AIDS. Mullis said, “If there is evidence that HIV causes AIDS, there should be scientific documents which either singly or collectively demonstrate that fact, at least with a high probability. There is no such document.” Mullis is widely held as an eccentric who has shared his experiences, including his abduction by extraterrestrials.

Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos, a medical physicist based at the Royal Perth Hospital published a paper in 1988 declaring that HIV had never been correctly isolated as a distinct ‘pure’ virus. Along with Valendar Turner and John Papadimitriou, this group proclaims that HIV does not even exist! Like Duesberg, they say that drugs, poverty, and HIV medications cause AIDS. They also broaden their view by claiming other sources of immune suppression can lead to AIDS, such as repeated exposure to semen among gay men, although seemingly not women. They propose that an oxidation process occurs in response to HIV/AIDS risk factors, such as drug use, malnutrition, and exposure to semen that causes immune suppression and ultimately AIDS.

Etienne de Harven retired from the University of Toronto and having been a Professor of Cell Biology at Sloan Kettering Institute New York from 1956 to 1981. de Harven isolated and conducted electron microscopic studies of the murine (mouse) friend leukemia virus. He was also a member of the 2000 South Africa’s Presidential AIDS Advisory Panel and is a recognized leader among AIDS Rethinkers. He worked as a scientist in his field from the 1950’s until he retired. He challenged the proof that HIV has been isolated, according to the standards laid down by him. de Harven has said, “Dominated by the media, by special pressure groups and by the interests of several pharmaceutical companies, the AIDS establishment efforts to control the disease lost contact with open-minded, peer-reviewed medical science since the unproven HIV/AIDS hypothesis received 100% of the research funds while all other hypotheses were ignored.”

Christine Maggiore was the founder of Alive & Well, and was perhaps the most visible and visited HIV/AIDS denialist website. She tested HIV positive and remained untreated. Her three-year-old daughter Eliza Jane Scovill died of complications of AIDS whereas second opinions state that the death was the result of an adverse reaction to antibiotics. Maggiore founded Alive & Well in 1995 and wrote What If Everything You Thought You Knew about AIDS Was Wrong? Her story was portrayed on the popular US television show “Law & Order SVU” in October 2008. Christine Maggiore died of AIDS just a couple months later in December 2008. She is no longer with us, but her harmful legacy lives on.

Celia Farber is a journalist who has chronicled the Peter Duesberg phenomenon since the late 1980s. She has a personal relationship with Bob Guccione the founder of Penthouse Magazine and owner of Penthouse Media Group, Inc. affording Farber considerable access to the publishing world. In 1987, Farber began writing and editing a monthly investigative feature column “Words from the Front” in SPIN Magazine, owned by Guccione. She has been featured in Discover Magazine, also owned by Guccione. These articles focused on the critiques of HIV/AIDS science. In 2006 she published an article “Out of control: AIDS and the corruption of medical science” in Harper’s magazine which stirred interest as the article represented a breakthrough of HIV/AIDS denialism into mainstream media. The article is also a chapter in her book, Serious Adverse Events: An Uncensored History of AIDS, a collection of her magazine articles, mostly from the 1980s and 1990s. Farber has taken Duesberg on as a cause and in so doing has engaged in several rather nasty exchanges with AIDS scientists, most notably Robert Gallo. Along with Duesberg, Farber received a 2008 Clean Hands Award from the Semmelweis Society for her speaking out about the truth in AIDS. She has most recently filed a libel lawsuit against an HIV treatment advocacy group in New York City.

RW: Some people say that AIDS denial is a fringe ideology, that only affects a tiny group of people. What would you say to that?

I would say that it is true that AIDS denialism is a fringe ideology and that a fairly small group of people are actively involved in propagating AIDS denial. However, there is considerable evidence that that significant numbers of people are affected by AIDS denial. We know that in the US over 40% of Gay men question whether HIV is the cause of AIDS. We know that a majority of people who should be tested for HIV refuse. We know that people turn to the Internet for AIDS information and find AIDS denialism on numerous websites. We know that people are vulnerable to confusing information, especially when it is something that anyone would want to hear, such as HIV is not the cause of AIDS. There is no telling how many people have been harmed by AIDS denialism or how many listen to them. Whether it be thousands or hundreds of thousands who listen to AIDS denialists, we know from the South African experience that if just one person with power to make decisions listens the results can be devastating.

RW: In “Denying AIDS” you make comparisons between AIDS denial and other fringe ideologies – could you tell us a bit more about that?

The similarities between AIDS denialism and cancer denialism, Holocaust Denial, 9/11 Truth Seeking, and Global Warming Denial are striking. All of these groups use the same tactics to create the impression that experts disagree and that the historical record is in dispute. They all use selective information taken out of context that supports their viewpoint. They ignore facts and propel myths. They include pseudo-experts. They rely on conspiracy theories to gain attention. They are persuasive in their rhetoric. They use books to circumvent peer-review, they create their own periodicals, and they produce documentary looking films. They also effectively use the Internet and have manipulated their way into mainstream media. In some cases, they are even the same people! I believe that there is a denialism prone personality that I discuss in Denying AIDS. People who approach the world from a suspicious stance, are anti-establishment, and somewhat grandiose are among those who are prone to denialism.

RW: What is the relationship between AIDS denial and alternative medicine?

Not all AIDS denialists sell alternative treatments, but some do. However, all AIDS denialists pave the path for fraudulent cures and snake oil treatments. AIDS denialist say that HIV does not cause AIDS, leaving open the question of what should be done to treat AIDS? Among the most notorious AIDS denialists are those who sell remedies, such as Matthias Rath and Gary Null who sell vitamins and nutritional supplements they have proclaimed treat HIV/AIDS. Ben Goldacre has written about Matthias Rath’s destructive profiteering in his book Bad Science. AIDS denialists have on occasion worked closely with these vitamin entrepreneurs, as was the case when American David Rasnick and South African Anthony Brink teamed up with Matthias Rath. Of course, many people make well informed decisions and choose to complementary treatments such as nutritional supplements and vitamins as part of their HIV-related health care. Indeed, people may even make informed decisions to forego anti-HIV mediations. I believe we should respect these decisions when they are well-informed. HIV treatments are not for everyone. The problem we have with AIDS denialism is that it misinforms people and steers them away from HIV treatments. People are therefore being deceived by denialism to make misinformed decisions, and that of course is not okay.

RW: What did you come across in the course of your research that especially surprised you?

It surprised me that the AIDS denialists truly believe what they are saying. I had thought that they must be blatant liars and scam artists. Perhaps some are. But I have come to realize that most AIDS denialists really believe that HIV does not cause AIDS. They tend to be paranoid and their suspicious cognitive style bends facts to fit their preconceived notions. I will never forget when Peter Duesberg looked me dead in the eyes and said “You know, there is no vaccine for this; it is not an infectious disease.” I have no question that he believes what he says, as mad as it is.

Seth C. Kalichman is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Connecticut, and the Editor of the journal AIDS and Behavior. His new book is “Denying AIDS: Conspiracy Theories, Pseudoscience, and Human Tragedy”; royalties are donated to buy HIV meds in Africa. http://denyingaids.blogspot.com

Written by Richard Wilson

May 26, 2009 at 7:32 pm

11 Responses

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  1. Great post,Richard!In Burundi,I saw many die of Aids, it is horrifying when you see someone reduced to bones.

    It would be applaudable to see the Richest Nations help with treatment to the poorest of the poorest in Africa,suffering from Aids.

    An amazing US Artist Alicia Keys has set up an organization called Keep a Child alive, they help deliver Medicine and Foods to Aids sufferers of Africa.

    It would also be great to see Africa stop spending cash on Weapons,and start investing in People’s lives!

    Desire K

    May 26, 2009 at 9:20 pm

  2. Hello,
    I am posting this to various blogs as a form of AIDS awareness that should have been brought to our attention many years ago by the media, have a great day!
    Joe

    “House of Numbers” http://www.houseofnumbers.com is a great documentary interviewing many of the big names in HIV/AIDS research. I don’t know how anyone could watch this film and not have a different view of HIV/AIDS from what we have all been taught to think. It is playing on the film festival circuit this summer.

    Joe Stokely

    May 27, 2009 at 2:49 am

    • Not sure everyone would agree with you about “House of Numbers”, Joe – least of all many of the scientists who were interviewed in the film, apparently under false pretences, who say that they have been misquoted.

      Richard Wilson

      May 27, 2009 at 9:20 pm

  3. The issue that always gets to me is the fact that we will not be able to ever tell the actual numbers of those who have suffered as a direct result of HIV/AIDS denialism. I do not limit this just to the numbers of people who have received a positive diagnosis but also the damage and grief that this causes to the families and friends of those who actively deny. The death of a loved one due to such quackery is something that is almost impossible to reconcile.
    On another level I feel that the response to HIV denialism in the UK has been appalling. From what I have seen, none of the major HIV advocacy / support organisations in this country has engaged in this issue on any level. The main problem is that the UK HIV sector tends to greet those that it deems as “ranting nutters” with a wall of silence. This is why I think that Denying AIDS is such an important book because Seth really slams home the point that being in denial about denialism is as dangerous as active denialism itself. Our HIV organisations should really be working, visibly, to challenge those denialists that operate in the UK. Sadly, I do not see this happening any time soon.

    BSE

    May 27, 2009 at 1:53 pm

  4. BSE
    Thanks for the kind words about Denying AIDS. I felt I had to respond to your comment. As appalled as you are about the UK response to denialism, it is far worse in the US. I was just in London and spent time with Richard Wilson [our host], Ben Goldacre [Bad Science], and Neil Denny [Little Atoms]. I am amazed at what they are doing to call attention to AIDS denial and educate the public about all kinds of quacks and frauds. With UK libel laws, they are even that much more heroic! I am sure there is room for more work against denialism in the UK, but we here in the US have some catching up to do!!
    Thanks again!!

    Seth Kalichman

    May 28, 2009 at 3:42 am

  5. BSE,

    As someone who is well versed in this, and has personally investigated it, it is apparent that you have not explored the dissident side. It seems to me that the reason the issue of what is being called “aids denialism” is growing, as there there are yet many valid questions to ask, that a growing number of people feel have not been answered about the basic science. It would take a rather lengthy conversation to bring some things to your awareness, but it is not my job to bring awareness unless you yourself are wanting such. And if you do, there are probably about 30 books on the dissident side of it, as well as several documentaries.

    As such, I would presume that the reason the hiv organisations are not challenging “those denialists” is because they now find themselves greatly challenged by “those denialists” who are vehemently demanding answers to some basic questions about the validity of much of the accepted research.

    In my opinion after my own very long and intensive investigation, they are more than right to do so, though you likely find that surprising and highly unbelievable as do most people, likely for the very reason that you yourself have not investigated the issues involved.

    Michael

    June 9, 2009 at 4:25 am

  6. You know, Richard, I do like Seth Kalichman, as a person, I mean, though I find him to be obstinate in his willingness to be made aware of, or to discuss many issues the rethinkers have on this subject.

    But just for instance, I show you from Seth’s own words, how easy it is to question some of this:

    Seths very words from the interview with my comments in parenthesis after:

    AIDS denialism matters because it kills people. (This statement is based on a report that was done by Max Essex of Harvard. Max has been a well funded hiv researcher, one of the handful of original retrovirologists that worked with Dr. Duesberg since day one of retrovirology. When Duesberg published that the studies of retrovirology as causes for both cancer and aids were misguided in the Proceedings of the Academy of Science, the other retrovirologists, including Essex went ballistic. As such, Max Essex has attempted to bring down Duesberg ever since. The recent study by Essex purporting 360,000 deaths due are due to “denialists” in South Africa is nothing but the latest salvo of self protection by Essex. The study even blames Duesberg for the supposed carnage. But, the study is based on extrapolations, and more than 80 percent of the deaths that Essex blames on HIV are listed in the South African Health statistics as being due to tuberculosis, which is well spread in SA. Another large percent of presumed untreated hiv deaths are listed in SA as malaria. So what is the truth? Particularly when both TB and malaria are well known to cause false positive hiv tests?)

    I know this sounds like drama and hyperbole, but it is true. (Is it, or is it self protection and propaganda to fight back aids rethinkers?)

    AIDS denialism creates confusion about the cause of AIDS. (true, and it rightfully should, because what could be more confusing than blaming hiv if the illnesses or deaths are due to or caused by other factors? People need to be properly diagnosed and treated for the exact presenting illness, not for phantom viruses that are detected by indirect and unproven means that have dozens of crossovers to other factors that have nothing to do with said virus. Overtreating people with black label proven drugs is not going to benefit them, particularly if they are also living in poverty and malnutrition. And many studies from Africa show a vast increase in deaths in the first 3 months of beginning anti-hiv drugs, but the drugs are not blamed, as HIV is always labeled the culprit).

    When people who need accurate information about HIV/AIDS are exposed to AIDS denialism they might actually believe that there is a debate among doctors and scientists about the cause of HIV when there is no such debate. (Says who? Just because the believers hide away and will not debate the rethinkers does not mean there is no debate? This debate has been raging for 25 years).

    AIDS denialists tell people that they should avoid HIV tests because they are invalid. (And it is very easy to verify the liklihood of invalid tests. Simply google the following words: Factors known false positive HIV, and you will find there are 70 factors listed in science journals known to cross react and cause false positive test results).

    In fact, HIV tests are extremely accurate and only rarely misdiagnose people with HIV. (For all we know they are all false positive. How extremely accurate can a test be that has 70 factors that can throw it?

    Being HIV infected and not knowing your HIV status means that you may not take measures to keep from spreading the virus. (Which may actually be healthier than stressing yourself to breaking by the terror and panic of getting a positive test result. Why scare yourself to death? The CDC claims that 250,000 in the US do not know they are “infected”, yet they are all overwhelmingly healthy and not dropping over in droves.)

    In many countries the majority of HIV infected people do not know they are infected. (Thank God. They have enough problems with daily survival and have no need of the shame and stress and trauma of a death diagnosis)

    Huge resources are dedicated to getting people at risk for HIV tested. (they certainly are. Many livelihoods are based on this. 250 billion dollars have been thrown at it, yet in 2005, there were less than 15,000 aids deaths, and the majority of those were liver failure and drug affects!)

    AIDS denialists undermine these efforts. (Correct. If it was not for the so called “denialists”, the HIVists would still be treating all hiv positives with deadly toxic AZT monotherapy that was given to all hiv positives during the 8 years of highest and skyrocketing aids deaths. Many people likely owe the “denialists” their very lives!)

    Finally, AIDS denialism matters because it persuades people who have tested HIV positive to refuse HIV treatments. (Considering not a single hiv treatment has been placebo tested, and considering all of the treatments carry FDA Black Label designations, this may be a good thing. And after all, the CDC claims that 50 percent of the 1 million declared American hiv positives do NOT take any aids drugs, and they are overwhelmingly healthy!)

    Denialists say that HIV treatments are toxic poison. (Not just the denialists say this. The FDA says it too in every black label that comes with every hiv drug. Black Labels are the FDA’s highest warning of greatest likelihood of toxic reactions.)

    In fact, HIV treatments are responsible for extending the lives and improving the health of people living with HIV/AIDS. (As there has never been a placebo test since highly toxic AZT way back in 1987, there is no proof that hiv drugs do anything at all. The claims of “extended lives” could be “extended lies” as all of the hiv drugs are simply compared to earlier toxic drugs like AZT. That is like comparing shooting someone in the head compared to stabbing them repeatedly. If they die slower by being stabbed, then we label stabbings as “life extending and improving the health” when compared to a bullet in the head.)

    In the US and UK, entire hospital wards that were once for AIDS patients are no longer needed. (That is true. The dissidents railed against the deadly toxic AZT monotherapy of 87 to 95. When doctors stopped telling all hiv positives they were destined to death, and when doctors replaced AZT with less toxic therapies, the aids wings closed. No need to be a rocket scientist to figure this one out!)

    People with HIV are returning to work and living healthier lives because of treatments. (People are returning to life because they are no longer stressed to breaking by the panic and fear of AIDS death beliefs and because the therapies are much less toxic than the bad old AZT days.

    AIDS deniers are trying to reverse this trend and return to days when there were no treatments.(Correct. There were far less deaths prior to the treatments. Though we do understand that the poor hiv diagnosed believers in AIDS drugs may very well scare themselves sick or to death if they were taken from them at this point. But this does not change the facts: A recent report by Amy Justice of the University of Pittsburg looked at 5700 aids deaths since 1995 to 2002, and found the leading cause of death across the board to be liver failure in those who are still taking current hiv drugs. Yet Canada uses completely different standards than the US to determine if someone has aids than the US does, and therefore they also put far less people on any aids drugs. The results? In 2007 Canada had 28 aids deaths, while their neighbor, the overdrugging and panic pushing US of A had 15,000 aids deaths. The denialists want to reduce this high number to ZERO by ending all of the toxic drugging and stress creating mass paranoia driven belief that HIV is the cause of aids. It is not, and never was. There is a very valid reason why the old saying “Scared to death” came about far back in mankinds common history. That old saying, “scared to death” is still with us simply because it is true to this day.)

    Michael

    June 9, 2009 at 6:03 am

  7. Michael, I hope you’re not HIV positive and avoiding meds…cause otherwise you’re doomed…what sloppy thinking

    kate

    June 16, 2009 at 3:58 pm

  8. Kate, what kind of disgustingly low mentality does it take to project death or sickness on someone?

    I certainly hope that no-hiv positive or cancer diagnosed individuals get anywhere near you. Attitudes like yours that project sure sickness and death on others are toxic.

    Would you be so kind next time as to take your fears and your projections of sickness and death that you project upon other people, and kindly stick it where the sun does not shine. And please keep your negativity and nasty death vibes to your own self instead of spreading them to others.

    Michael

    June 22, 2009 at 4:38 am

  9. According to Michael, AIDS and AIDS deaths are caused by “negativity and nasty death vibes”. Apparently it is a result of someone “project(ing) death or sickness” onto someone else.

    This sounds a lot like the kind of magical thinking that underpins primitive beliefs in witchcraft as the primary cause of unfortunate events. The idea that horrible events like diseases, famine or meterological natural disasters happen because evil people have thought it/wished it/cast spells is a common theme in the history of human ideas. Humans seem almost hardwired to go for the supernatural explanation. The fact that an apparently moderately intelligent person would promote this kind of thinking in the 21st century through the internet shows how close to the surface the pattern is.

    Denialism is simply the other side of the coin: if you believe something will happen, it will actually cause it to happen. Conversely if you refuse to believe something will happen, then it won’t. The commercialisation of this nonsense reached its apogee a couple of years ago with the utterly insane rip-off scam of “The Secret”.

    Kind of reminds me of an allegedly true story I heard recently about an elderly Aboriginal lady in Central Australia, a traditional tribal elder on one of the outstations there who was having increasing trouble from chest pains. The lady in question was a famous artist and painter of Dreamtime stories going back thousands of years, and a custodian of traditional lore. In her younger days she had worked as a clerk in an Alice Springs hospital.

    The young cardiologist who flew in from Adelaide was keen to demonstrate his cultural sensitivity, and after carefully examining her, he asked her gently what her beliefs were about what was causing the pains.

    She thought for a moment, looked out into the middle distance, swiped a fly away, and then said:

    “I don’t know what you think it is, Sonny, but I reckon it’s probably coronary atherosclerosis.”

    Snout

    July 21, 2009 at 8:51 am

  10. Anyone stupid enough to think that HIV causes AIDS and in fact that HIV is the HIV ‘virus’ ought to commit him or herself to Kalichman’s asylum.

    vito d.

    July 25, 2012 at 8:27 am


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